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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Wireless feed to camera from Zooms?

 
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Scott Brooks
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Oct 14, 2009, 2:04 PM

Post #1 of 29 (995 views)
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Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? Can't Post
I assume that I can send a wireless signal back to my camera from the Zoom H2 and the Zoom H4n. Could someone point me to the proper equipment that I would need to accomplish this?

I think I've decided to purchase a couple of H4n units instead of going with the R-44. It just seems a bit more practical for my needs.

Part two ... Can I just take an 1/8th inch out to XLR from the Zoom and run that to my camera as well?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Scott


Kenneth
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Oct 14, 2009, 6:09 PM

Post #2 of 29 (989 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
I'm not sure why you would do that? You are going to need a wireless transmitter and receiver, so why wouldn't you just plug a lavaliere mic directly into the wireless?



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



Scott Brooks
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Oct 14, 2009, 8:35 PM

Post #3 of 29 (981 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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I'm not sure why you would do that? You are going to need a wireless transmitter and receiver, so why wouldn't you just plug a lavaliere mic directly into the wireless?
Because with the H4n's inputs I can run two additional microphones and send the feed from the entire thing back to my camera without running a snake.


Brackish
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Oct 14, 2009, 10:21 PM

Post #4 of 29 (975 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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with the H4n's inputs I can run two additional microphones and send the feed from the entire thing back to my camera without running a snake.
You thinking about sending a mix of the H4n's onboard mics plus
the two XLRs? That would be a mix of 4 mic's down to a mono out.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

(This post was edited by Brackish on Oct 14, 2009, 10:22 PM)


Scott Brooks
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Oct 14, 2009, 11:58 PM

Post #5 of 29 (967 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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In Reply To
with the H4n's inputs I can run two additional microphones and send the feed from the entire thing back to my camera without running a snake.
You thinking about sending a mix of the H4n's onboard mics plus
the two XLRs? That would be a mix of 4 mic's down to a mono out.
That would be correct.


Brackish
Veteran


Oct 15, 2009, 12:24 AM

Post #6 of 29 (964 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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You thinking about sending a mix of the H4n's onboard mics plus
the two XLRs?
That would be correct.
May want to confirm with a H4n owner that that is do-able and also
if there is any way to control the mix or if it would be 25%
from each mic.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


Mark Foley
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Oct 15, 2009, 12:51 AM

Post #7 of 29 (961 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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I think I've decided to purchase a couple of H4n units instead of going with the R-44
I would seriously rethink this...nothing against the H4n, but the R44's capability...ease of use...build quality outweighs the Zoom....

_________________________
Mark






Brackish
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Oct 15, 2009, 1:04 AM

Post #8 of 29 (958 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
The R44 can do a 4-to-1 mixdown with individual channel volume
control, correct? Or would an adapter be needed to convert
4-into-2 to 4-to-1?



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

(This post was edited by Brackish on Oct 15, 2009, 1:34 AM)


Mark Foley
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Oct 15, 2009, 4:51 AM

Post #9 of 29 (945 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
Are you talking output from the recorder?
_________________________
Mark






MLiebergot
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Oct 15, 2009, 8:00 AM

Post #10 of 29 (932 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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I'm not sure why you would do that? You are going to need a wireless transmitter and receiver, so why wouldn't you just plug a lavaliere mic directly into the wireless?
Kenny, the reason would be to have redundant backup/monitor sync audio on tape for the edit.
I have done this quite often with my R44 and H4n. In most instances my recorder audio is mt main audio for the edit, but by having a wireless feed from one of the recorders, or a wireless handheld mic by the recorder, helps with the edit for sync reasons. For receptions, 9 times out of 10 I record to recorder and ahve backup audio going the cameras in forms of wireless lavs or wireless mics, near the same audio source as the recorders.

I am actually doing this for someone where I am second camera and audio for a performance tomorrow night. I will be taking a board feed and a wireless feed (from mics up front) and send them into my R44. Then I am sending out a wireless signal from the RCA "Line Out" to the cameras.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


MLiebergot
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Oct 15, 2009, 8:03 AM

Post #11 of 29 (926 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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The R44 can do a 4-to-1 mixdown with individual channel volume control, correct? Or would an adapter be needed to convert 4-into-2 to 4-to-1?
The R44 has 2 sets of RCA "Line Outs". These are for XLR 1-2 and XLR 3-4. So if you want all 4 channels of audio going out wirelessly to cameras, you have to use 2 seperate wireless units to do so. Or use a mixer to mix all 4 channels down to one mono output feed.

As I said previously, I have done this often, but only to be used as backup/monitor/sync audio, as my recorder audio is my main audio for 90% of the edit.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Oct 15, 2009, 8:15 AM)


MLiebergot
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Oct 15, 2009, 8:12 AM

Post #12 of 29 (923 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
Scott, camera and what wireless unit are you using.
I have sent a "Line Out"" mix form the H4n to my camera, and use Sennheiser G2 systems.

I make sure that my signal output is padded down at least -20 db though. Off of the top of my head I forget if that's at the receiver end or transmitter, but it's one of them.

Another option is to make sure that you pad the signal coming out of the H4n with an attenuator to knock it down -20 db. Something like the AT8202 works well. Although you will need a 1/8 to XLR cable or adapter to use it. Also the Rolls DB25 is good to have in your audio bag of tricks, as you have a pair of 1/4 inputs and one XLR output.

Sine the signal coming from your H4n will be hot, the key here is being able to attenuate your audio before it gets to the camera. This can be either in the form of attenuation in your wireless, but even better to attenuate before it gets to your wireless feed.

Don't bother with the H4 as a wireless feed, as although the feed will work, the output from the h4 is unreliable at best.

As I have mentioned here already, I use 90% of my recorder audio as my main audio but use my wireless fed camera audio for backup/monitor/sync purposes only.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Oct 15, 2009, 8:16 AM)


Scott Brooks
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Oct 15, 2009, 8:24 AM

Post #13 of 29 (918 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
Correct ... I've had a lot of times in the past where I've tried to sync up the audio. Now everyone here is always saying no problem, just line up the audio ... but in larger churches there's so much echo that it can't be found ... making it mostly visual.

As for why the H4n as opposed to R44 ... I'm thinking practicality. I would much rather use a couple of H4ns (and throw in my current H2 as well) around a wedding than having to buy additional wireless mics to work with the R44.

If I'm understanding this correctly (and maybe I'm not) I would have to spend about $1000 on the R44 and then use 4 wireless microphones to feed it ... keeping the R44 next to me to get the benefits of owning it.

It's been a while since I've purchased a wireless set, but I'm guessing I'd be looking at another $2000 to $2500 just for the wireless systems. Add that to the R44 and I'm easily over 3 grand for the audio. I'm only doing about 3 to 4 weddings a year right now and that seems like over kill.

With the purchase of two H4ns I can use them in strategic areas such as soloist and podium and not even have to worry about adding any additional mics ... unless the soloist is close enough to the musicians and I can run a cable to it.

As for the stage plays that I cover ... I could set the Zoom at center stage and put a couple of additional mics on it. I know they can't be individually balanced, but it's so much better than what I'm doing now.

If my logic is way off, I'm willing to listen.

As for my original question ... how to get the signal back to my camera wireless ... what piece of equipment should I look at? I'm sure I'm missing something simple.

Thanks


(This post was edited by Scott Brooks on Oct 15, 2009, 1:19 PM)


MLiebergot
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Oct 15, 2009, 9:01 AM

Post #14 of 29 (916 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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As for my original question ... how to get the signal back to my camera wireless ... what piece of equipment should I look at? I'm sure I'm missing something simple.
Scott, see my post above for some simple tools that will help with a wireless feed from recorder "Line Outs".

Quote
Another option is to make sure that you pad the signal coming out of the H4n with an attenuator to knock it down -20 db. Something like the AT8202 works well. Although you will need a 1/8 to XLR cable or adapter to use it. Also the Rolls DB25 is good to have in your audio bag of tricks, as you have a pair of 1/4 inputs and one XLR output.
The best setup would be...
Recorder "Line out">Attenuator>Wireless>Camera

But depending which wireless you are using the...
Recorder "Line out">Wireless (with at least -20 db attenuation)>Camera

The key to this is getting your "Line" signal down to a "Mic" level signal. If you don;t then you stand a very good chance of signal overlaod and clipping. Keeping in mind of course that your recorder is recording at the proper levels.

Since I haven't done it in a while, as I know there is no way to adjust the output of the 1/8 "Line Out' of the H4n, whihc is why atteuation of the signal form the Line Out is key. But sine the H4n share the same 1/8 "Headphone/Line Out", you might try a quick test to see if simply turning down the output volume might work. Even then it still might be a good idea to attenuate the signal somehow before it gets to your camera and adjust accordingly on the camera while shooting. It;s always betetr to record a little lower than hotter, as you can always bring up the signal in post. but once that audio is clipped it's lost and you can't bring it back accurately.

I have both the R44 and H4ns and use then for different applications. For wedding receptions I find using the H4n more than enough, with very good results.
For stage, especially live band recordings, I find the R44 works better as I use the R44 in one location and run cable with mics accordingly. If you wanted you could use a pair of H4n's with onboard mics and wired mics and mix in post. I prefer the R44 as I already have 4 track of audio perfectly mixed, which makes post a little easier.

Now you could go with Kenny's approach (R44 and 4 wireless feeds), but that means 4 wireless systems at least for recoding purposes and and additional 1-2 systems for output to camera.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Brackish
Veteran


Oct 15, 2009, 11:47 AM

Post #15 of 29 (910 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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The R44 can do a 4-to-1 mixdown with individual channel volume
control, correct?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you talking output from the recorder?
Yep, a mixed-down line out. Or how 'bout a 4-to-2 mixdown out?



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

(This post was edited by Brackish on Oct 15, 2009, 11:50 AM)


Brackish
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Oct 15, 2009, 11:59 AM

Post #16 of 29 (905 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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Don't bother with the H4 as a wireless feed, as although the feed will work, the output from the h4 is unreliable at best.
You meant H2 here?



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


Brackish
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Oct 15, 2009, 12:07 PM

Post #17 of 29 (904 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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Quote
The R44 can do a 4-to-1 mixdown with individual channel volume control, correct?
The R44 has 2 sets of RCA "Line Outs". These are for XLR 1-2 and XLR 3-4. So if you want all 4 channels of audio going out wirelessly to cameras, you have to use 2 seperate wireless units to do so. Or use a mixer to mix all 4 channels down to one mono output feed.

Sounds like the R44 is only a 4-track recorder but not a mixer at all.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


Mark Foley
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Oct 15, 2009, 12:13 PM

Post #18 of 29 (902 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
THe R44 was never designed to mix on the fly...but rather capture and and give you full lattitude to mix in post
_________________________
Mark






Brackish
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Oct 15, 2009, 12:14 PM

Post #19 of 29 (902 views)
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make sure that you pad the signal coming out of the H4n with an attenuator to knock it down -20 db. Something like the AT8202 works well. Although you will need a 1/8 to XLR cable or adapter to use it.
 When I'm attenuating 1/8" I have a barrel attenuator that has 1/8" in and out. [I think the attenuation is only 10dB though.] Alternatively, when working with 1/8" cable that needs attenuation, I use a headphone volume level controller which has variable attenuation - but the amount of attenuation is not marked so you can't set it to, say, "20dB" down exactly.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


MLiebergot
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Oct 15, 2009, 12:25 PM

Post #20 of 29 (900 views)
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When I'm attenuating 1/8" I have a barrel attenuator that has 1/8" in and out. [I think the attenuation is only 10dB though.] Alternatively, when working with 1/8" cable that needs attenuation, I use a headphone volume level controller which has variable attenuation - but the amount of attenuation is not marked so you can't set it to, say, "20dB" down exactly.
I've simply used a 1/8 to XLR cable and run this into the AT8207 attenuator (set to -20, as it can do -10, -20, -30 db attenuation), and then the normal XLR to 1/8 Sennheiser cable or if I use the plug in transmitter a normal XLR audio cable.

I haven't seen a 1/8 barrel attenuator anywhere, but did find this cable from the SoundProfessionals. But it only does -6 db of attenuation.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Brackish
Veteran


Oct 15, 2009, 12:44 PM

Post #21 of 29 (897 views)
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did find this cable from the SoundProfessionals. But it only does -6 db of attenuation.
That looks like the cable I have. But I think you read that wrong.
It starts at 6dB of attenuation and goes all the way to 100%
attenuation.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Oct 15, 2009, 1:11 PM

Post #22 of 29 (891 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
I have both the R44 and H4ns and use then for different applications. For wedding receptions I find using the H4n more than enough, with very good results.
For stage, especially live band recordings, I find the R44 works better as I use the R44 in one location and run cable with mics accordingly. If you wanted you could use a pair of H4n's with onboard mics and wired mics and mix in post. I prefer the R44 as I already have 4 track of audio perfectly mixed, which makes post a little easier.

Michael ... thank you for your patience. I think I was typing at the same time as yourself on the post that I missed.

I never would have even thought about the fact that I would need to pad the signal. I do have a couple of different attenuators, so I should be good to go there.

I would love to have the R44 for my stage work, but again ... just being practical about it. Some years I do quite a bit while other years it drops off.

I'm using a Sennheiser EW100 wireless system and and Sony Z7 as my main camera. I also have an FX1 and will probably get a Juicebox for it at some point.

I've never used anything in conjunction with my wireless unit other than the microphone that came with it ... never even thought about it before ... so this is all a bit new.

Question ... I know the signal coming from the H4n will be a mono feed from all inputs and that's fine ... even knowing it's not necessarily a good mix. However, are you saying that the wireless feed I receive from the H4n is not going to be "good" ... as in solid sounding, fidelity wise?

Thanks to everyone for the input. It's more help than you might think.



MLiebergot
Veteran


Oct 15, 2009, 1:21 PM

Post #23 of 29 (885 views)
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Re: [Scott Brooks] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
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Question ... I know the signal coming from the H4n will be a mono feed from all inputs and that's fine ... even knowing it's not necessarily a good mix. However, are you saying that the wireless feed I receive from the H4n is not going to be "good" ... as in solid sounding, fidelity wise?
The feed from the H4n will be fine, what I meant to type before, was what I was corrected on was that the "Line Out" feed from the Zoom H2 won;t be worth the trouble. As the feed from the H2 could be easily distorted. I don;t like the inputs and outputs on the Zoom H2, especially the "Line" input on the H2, as the Line feed from a board to the H2 can easily distort into total crap, as the signal is too hot, and the recording level pre amps on the H2 are digital and before the input gain, so no matter what you try, you can't adjust the input properly below 100. If you adjust the recording input below 100, then you just get quieter clipped audio.

So I only use the H2 for use with it's onboard mics and more moderate recording situations, like recording strings, horns etc. This is where the unit shines.

But for anything else I use my Zoom H4n, Marantz PMD620, or Edirol R44.

So in your case I you should be fine with the H4n and using it's "Line Out" to a wireless.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Brackish
Veteran


Oct 18, 2009, 11:16 AM

Post #24 of 29 (841 views)
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So in your case I you should be fine with the H4n and using it's "Line Out" to a wireless.
I don't know which Senn wireless he's using but if it's the G2 I really don't
see a reason to use any extra attenuator (such as the 10-20-30 barrel
one you linked); the G2 in-built attenuator has worked fine for me.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


MLiebergot
Veteran


Oct 18, 2009, 1:03 PM

Post #25 of 29 (835 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wireless feed to camera from Zooms? [In reply to] Can't Post
Yeah, I used my G2 wireless the other night for an awards show. 4 cameras (two Z5's, two FX1's) (stage right, stage left, center by sound board, and mobile), 4 operators.
I was manning the center rear camera and running the sound from my R44 and the soundboard feed and wireless feed from a Rode Hyper card mic (on a choir).
Then I took an RCA stereo out of the R44 to my G2 transmitter with a -30 DB pad on it.

The R44 came out fantastic, you should hear this orchestra and choir.
Oh, and most important of all, the wireless feed from the R44 to 3 of the cameras (for sync, backup) worked great as well.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

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