Home Free Library Store
Free Catalog



Save with a Two Year Membership

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.
Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members
Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index Search Posts
Who's Online Log In



Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Zoom H2 sync ...

 

 


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 4, 2008, 1:59 PM

Post #1 of 15 (2531 views)
Shortcut
Zoom H2 sync ... Can't Post

Well ... I took a chance on these and it didn't quite go the way I had hoped. Still ... it's essential that I get better audio for my weddings and receptions and these will help.

High school show and it's easily out of sync within 20 minutes or so ... so it's actually not as good as my iRiver.

I have to tape again tonight and I actually wondered if it was going to be worth it to set them up again, but then I remembered last night when the rain hit and it was hard to hear in the audience for a few minutes (tin roof on a cafetoium). The Zooms were up close and will probably help. Plus ... it's still backup for anything else that might go wrong, so I'll take them with me again.

I appreciate everyone's feedback on these units as well as a few others.

Michael ... I'll definitely look into the suggestions you provided me with. The only thing is that now I'm looking at going HD, so I'm not sure how large of a check I want to write.

On the good side, this particular school (though small) does several events through the year and it could provide a few more opportunities for live stage events. We'll just have to see.

Thanks again for the help.

Scott


RT Steele
Veteran


Apr 4, 2008, 4:51 PM

Post #2 of 15 (2517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn Scott... I've been following your synch issues and came "this close" to blowing next week's booze money on one of these things. (I've got a wedding with "real" musicians playing "real" music coming up Tongue)

Hope you get it sorted out.

- RT


JC/DV
Veteran


Apr 6, 2008, 9:25 AM

Post #3 of 15 (2452 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

On my Zoom H4 and iRivers I have to speed up the file to 100.1% Not sure of the exact value because in Vegas it only shows tenths of a percent. Basically I match up the waveforms to sudden sounds, but I capture full tapes so I can have a start point and end point towards the end of the ceremony to make a good and accurate sync point. Once I can find that length, I can copy and paste event attributes and it will apply the same adjustment to all irivers and H4 clips for me. Takes a few seconds to do.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


Brackish
Veteran


Apr 6, 2008, 2:35 PM

Post #4 of 15 (2440 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JC/DV] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Basically I match up the waveforms to sudden sounds, but I capture full tapes so I can have a start point and end point towards the end of the ceremony to make a good and accurate sync point.


Sounds like what Hollywood has been doing for many years, using a
clapboard to sync sound to picture. I've been doing it this way for
quite some time with good success. Maybe something for Sparky to think
about.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


JC/DV
Veteran


Apr 6, 2008, 2:47 PM

Post #5 of 15 (2437 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Basically I match up the waveforms to sudden sounds, but I capture full tapes so I can have a start point and end point towards the end of the ceremony to make a good and accurate sync point.


Sounds like what Hollywood has been doing for many years, using a
clapboard to sync sound to picture. I've been doing it this way for
quite some time with good success. Maybe something for Sparky to think
about.


Yep.. very similar but I doubt hollywood has to do the time stretch technique.Laugh

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 6, 2008, 3:19 PM

Post #6 of 15 (2430 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like what Hollywood has been doing for many years, using a
clapboard to sync sound to picture. I've been doing it this way for
quite some time with good success. Maybe something for Sparky to think
about.


Not really. It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.

I don't mind cutting down a stage performance a "little" bit and re-sync, but this is too far out to mess with.

I ended up using audio from one of the Zooms today from the performance. It was when the rain was hitting the roof. I was in the back and had a hard time hearing, but Zoom did a pretty good job up front. Luckily it was only over about a 4 or 5 minute period.

Edited to add ... I ended up just using the audio from my AT shotgun and the feed from the board. I really didn't think it came out that bad.

These are still great when you need to use sections of the audio. For instance ... it'll be great for soloists or other musicians at a ceremony. It will also come in handy at the reception. The vast majority of our toasts go out over the DJs board, so putting one in front of the stack of speakers should work really well for that as well as catching the music ... which doesn't have to be perfect.

I will more than likely be putting one of my Zooms up for sale as I really only need one at this time.



(This post was edited by Sparky on Apr 6, 2008, 3:40 PM)


Mark Foley
Veteran


Apr 6, 2008, 3:35 PM

Post #7 of 15 (2425 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

The little zooms do ok for just what you descibe...but if you're going to be doing serious-like work in the future, and you don't want to be worrying about sync, you almost have to opt for something like an R4 Pro at the VERY LEAST that can be slaved to timecode. I'm saving (although very slowly Unsure) for a Cantar X2.... one bad as* mutha..... arguably the best recorder on the planet.
_________________________
Mark






Brackish
Veteran


Apr 6, 2008, 3:41 PM

Post #8 of 15 (2421 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Sounds like what Hollywood has been doing for many years, using a clapboard to sync sound to picture. I've been doing it this way for quite some time with good success. Maybe something for Sparky to think about.

Not really. It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.


You sure you're understanding what's being talked about here?
You sync up a whole 1 hour+ section with the one clap in at
the beginning and the one clap out at the tail end. Using this
clapboard technique is how you deal with it going out of sync.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 6, 2008, 3:46 PM

Post #9 of 15 (2417 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Sounds like what Hollywood has been doing for many years, using a clapboard to sync sound to picture. I've been doing it this way for quite some time with good success. Maybe something for Sparky to think about.

Not really. It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.


You sure you're understanding what's being talked about here?
You sync up a whole 1 hour+ section with the one clap in at
the beginning and the one clap out at the tail end. Using this
clapboard technique is how you deal with it going out of sync.

I do understand about speeding up or slowing down the audio. I can change speeds on the audio in FCP. But I also know I can't just drag the audio out with a handle to the point of it matching up at the back end. If you can explain step by step how to do it in FCP then I'm more than willing to listen.


RT Steele
Veteran


Apr 7, 2008, 7:26 PM

Post #10 of 15 (2337 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.
I guess I don't understand either. Once it's all synched up on the timeline, why wouldn't it stay that way?

- RT


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 7, 2008, 7:30 PM

Post #11 of 15 (2334 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.
I guess I don't understand either. Once it's all synched up on the timeline, why wouldn't it stay that way?

- RT

Just like an iRiver or other digital (lower cost) recorders it doesn't run at the exact speed of the tape in camera, therefore it drifts ... either running a bit faster or a bit slower.


(This post was edited by Sparky on Apr 7, 2008, 7:30 PM)


RT Steele
Veteran


Apr 7, 2008, 8:23 PM

Post #12 of 15 (2327 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
It's easy to sync up the first part, but that still doesn't keep it from going out of sync.
I guess I don't understand either. Once it's all synched up on the timeline, why wouldn't it stay that way?

- RT

Just like an iRiver or other digital (lower cost) recorders it doesn't run at the exact speed of the tape in camera, therefore it drifts ... either running a bit faster or a bit slower.


Yeah, I know what out-of-synch means with regard to audio. I get it to with my iRivers. But I just make a cut and scoot the piece down a few frames - no big deal. Somehow I misread your comment and assumed your were saying it "drifted" inside your NLE once you had already done this.

I think this is just part of audio life when using different sources. I've even had recordings from a VX2000 get a second or so out of whack with a VX2100. Other times it's fine. Go figure.

- RT


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 7, 2008, 8:30 PM

Post #13 of 15 (2323 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Normally it wouldn't be too bad to adjust (like for a wedding), but I was using the wrong tools for what I wanted to accomplish. When you're looking at a three hour performance it's a lot of work.

Michael has been gracious enough to provide me with information on other recording setups that would probably provide the results I'm looking for. The problem is whether I would do enough live performance taping to actually make them worth investing in.

We'll see how this year goes. I have the opportunity to pick up a few more shows this year. If it's enough then I'll invest a bit heavier on the audio side.


Brackish
Veteran


Apr 7, 2008, 8:46 PM

Post #14 of 15 (2321 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've used iRiver, minidisc, and hard drive recorders. They
all drift off from the cams.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


MLiebergot
Veteran


Apr 8, 2008, 6:55 AM

Post #15 of 15 (2273 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Zoom H2 sync ... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really wish that everyone would try to remember, that practically ALL recorders will have drift form one to the other.
This is due to using different crystals. It's not a defect in the recorder, just the nature of the beast.
As a general rule, any recorder manufactured in China will most likely have this issue, as cheap crystals are used. Units made in Japan seem to have a much better success rate and better build quality.

What was posted in another post on another topic kind of holds true, "you get what you pay for".
While the Zoom recorders (H2/H4) are nice units and are versatile, and of course are inexpensive by industry standards. They will not be the best tool for every job, as some are finding out.
For a wedding, where you might find yourself using portions of audio and then resync if needed they might very well fit the bill great.
But it's going to be a bit more of a chore if you are relying on using 3 hours of footage for the likes of recitals, plays, services etc. So if you film these type of events then you may want to purchase the best unit that suits all of your needs,a nd not necessarily the cheapest.

For those who want a better quality unit, I would seriously suggest taking a step up inn price a bit, and get an Edirol R09 )(New Edirol R09HR seems great), Marantz PMD620, Tascam DR1, or even the new upcoming Edirol R-44 (which I think is suited perfectly for us). Yes they are slightly more to much more than the iRivers or Zoom recorders.
But and I'm going to scream this...STOP BEING CHEAP WITH YOUR AUDIO! (Sparky this isn't being directed at you, but I posted this in general for all).

I know we all have budgets, but with everyone looking to spend big bucks on new EX1 or Z7, and then look for the cheapest way to capture audio.
Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest in quality video gear, because we should, as that's what we want to do, produce great video. But video is far more than shooting with the latest and greatest camera.
But when will everyone learn.
You will find cameras come and go. You will find that you wind up owning your audio equipment much, much longer than any video camera.
Quality audio gear will hold it's value and last almost forever for most. Take a look on Ebay at how expensive some of these mics go for. There's a reason for this...they hold their value because the technology doesn't really change, as the audio process is the same.

Now there are a recent onslaught of new small recorders on the market, so there are good and bad units out there.
They all have their strengths and weaknesses, as there isn't a Holy Grail of recorders right now.
But with some careful research you can find the perfect unit that suits your needs. Ron Priest has with his Edirol R4, and doesn't even rely on camera audio at all anymore. He took the plunge and spent more on a quality piece of equipment that suited his needs and hasn't looked back.

Just put down on paper what your requirements are for recording and editing your events. Do a little research (people like myself and Mark are always glad to give some feedback and offer suggestions). And before you know it, you will go from good video, to producing some really outstanding stuff.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Apr 8, 2008, 9:39 AM)