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adtr
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Feb 16, 2005, 1:48 PM

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James
Enthusiast


Feb 16, 2005, 2:02 PM

Post #2 of 101 (7556 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

A with B fast approaching.

Timeframe to switch to HDV, end of this wedding season (Nov/Dec)

My hold up is computer speed and handling as well as consumer HD set ups. BB and Costco really push the new stuff, and that's great but I will wait a bit longer on the products that are available to me in post before I make that change. It's not a selling point yet. It's a small market that see value in it. As that market grows the demand will take off. I personally do not think someone who has had HDV since it was released is really going to be able to use that as a selling tool, like "I'm better than him, because I have been using it for a year" Maybe to a bride there may be some comfort in that, however I doubt it will make a big difference. JMO!

James


-Using 2 PD-170s, Sony Diversified Wireless, P4 3.2, Matrox RTX 100, 1 gig of ram, Matrox display card, duel 17 lcds, 800 gigs o HD, Carbon mono and tripod with a 503. PPro, Encore, Audition, Sound Forge 8.
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it


belsokar
User

Feb 16, 2005, 2:26 PM

Post #3 of 101 (7534 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had some clients request both High Definition and HDV specifically...if I book those clients, then I move to HDV sooner than later...although I'll probably pick up (at the minimum) an FX-1 as a 3rd camera to go along with a PD150 and vx2100, giving me at the minimum a bit of future proofing...


sc
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 2:39 PM

Post #4 of 101 (7517 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

as much as i'd like to go hd now, i'm with the A's for now.
i'll start working out a plan for B once the following happens:
- hd is more of a standard for consumers which means, some or all fo the following:

- hd tv's outsells edtv's and sdtv's
- more hd programming available such that it's worth it for consumers to go for hdtv's
- dvd and movies in hd are available to consumers
- both hdtv's and hd players become more readily available and affordable

- the cost and viability of displaying and delivering in hd (not just film in hd) is more manageable for me

until then, hd is still a novelty that i may eventually evolve to, just not right now.




----------------
I deal with dysfunctional families on a daily basis. And trust me, everyone has a story, and none of you are that special.


ukweddings
User


Feb 16, 2005, 3:08 PM

Post #5 of 101 (7487 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm planning to look more closely at HDV towards the end of this season. I'll probably adopt HDV if there is a logical delivery format by then

Regards, Mark

==================================
Computers: Pentium IV 2.6 Ghz, 1GB RAM, 250GB and 300GB Maxtor OneTouch external drives, Matrox RT.X 100 Extreme Pro . 1 Mac Mini, 1GB RAM
Cameras: Sony VX2100E, TRV900E
Still Camera: Canon EOS 350D ( Digital Rebel XT ), 28-135mm IS USM lens, 24-70mm F/2.8L lens, Speedlite 580EX Flash
Camera acessories: Manfrotto 525MVB(3283)/503, Manfrotto Monopod, Glidecam 2000 Pro, 10/20w Sony light, Sennheiser G2, Raynox HD-7000 Pro and Canon WD58 WA Lens
Software: Premier Pro 1.5, Vegas 5, Final Cut Express HD, Audition 1.5, Encore 1.5
==================================


AlanB
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Feb 16, 2005, 3:48 PM

Post #6 of 101 (7450 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not even considering it until there is a way to deliver it to a reasonable percentage of the masses. And that is going to be a few years. Once the studios start delivering movies in HD format and folks have players in their homes, I will start to look at it. Sony should be on their second or third version of the Z1 by then. And then it might make sense from a business perspective.

Alan


scotthayes
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Feb 16, 2005, 6:32 PM

Post #7 of 101 (7369 views)
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Re: [AlanB] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, A. I REALLY wanted to go HDV with this latest camera purchase, but the lack of delivery format and the desire to step up to a true broadcast quality shoulder mounted camera for some other goings on, made the decision for me. I tell you what, if it was affordable, I would bypass HDV and go straight for a Panasoinc AJ-SDX900.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


adtr
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Feb 16, 2005, 10:32 PM

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scotthayes
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Feb 17, 2005, 5:14 AM

Post #9 of 101 (7278 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

for that kind of money, TRUE HD is somethign I would hold out for.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 5:33 AM

Post #10 of 101 (7266 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I decided, for personal reasons, had nothing to do with sound business sense, to be an early adopter. I have moved full force into HDV with 1 FX camera and 1 Z1 camera, along with a turnkey editing system. I decided to shoot all of work in HDV, editing in HD, and encode and deliver on DVD. There is still some question as to how these cameras are going to perform in real life wedding situations, but from my first experience in what I consider a low light venue, I thought the FX performed pretty good. I think the Z1 is really going to be the way to go, however.

As I have stated numerous times before... I believe at this time, unless you have some discretionary spending funds, waiting a bit longer to move to HDV is better business decision.







Cancer - Step Outside the Box.. by Ty Bollinger

Maybe a life could be saved.


AEMIKEA
User

Feb 17, 2005, 3:31 PM

Post #11 of 101 (7156 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Shane, have shot 2 weddings with a 3rd this Saturday, have the same approach as you, shoot, edit in HDV and encode for standard DVD, I don't want to go back and edit in HDV later, the complete wedding will be ready to go for HDV when they are ready, more income $$$$$$later! The cineform codec works pretty darn good it is realtime editing with 3 streams, sometimes the audio gets out of sync briefly, but when I restartit on the timeline a few seconds back it works fine. This Weekends wedding will really tell the tale, I will post later next week, love the widescreen and the beautiful picture! (3 FX1's)


Mike


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 4:30 PM

Post #12 of 101 (7133 views)
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Re: [AEMIKEA] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Great, be sure to report back on Monday and let me know how it went. My email address is szerangue@lifeproductions.net I would really like to keep in touch and share notes and experiences.







Cancer - Step Outside the Box.. by Ty Bollinger

Maybe a life could be saved.


RustyB
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 5:35 PM

Post #13 of 101 (7123 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if you've already answered this Shane, but have you took any of your edited HDV projects, and made an SD DVD yet?

I'm just curious to see how big of a loss doing the downconversion in the last step creates. Every hollywood movie I own is on a SD disc, so I don't understand all the arguements about not being able to deliver HD discs. If you start out with better camera footage, you make a better looking DVD. Isn't it that simple, or is their something I don't understand about DVD?

Back when those first .m2t files from Japan were floating around, I took some, dropped them in Vegas, and made a DVD. I thought they looked pretty darned good!




Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc


scotthayes
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 5:45 PM

Post #14 of 101 (7115 views)
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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

when you guys get one of those done, I would love to see what a finsihed dvd looks like.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 5:53 PM

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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I have, Rusty. And you can forget about what all the nay'sayers are chatting about, the encoded file is very good. I think better than DV to DVD. I have some clips on my ftp site. One is called TestHDV (HDV timeline encoded to HD .wmv) and DVDEncode (HDV timeline encoded to DVD .m2p) If you need the ftp site information, email me at szerangue@lifeproductions.net







Cancer - Step Outside the Box.. by Ty Bollinger

Maybe a life could be saved.


AEMIKEA
User

Feb 17, 2005, 6:45 PM

Post #16 of 101 (7101 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll keep you updated Shane, I think I will use AE to do the down convert and compare it to Premiere to see if there is a difference.


Mike


(This post was edited by AEMIKEA on Feb 17, 2005, 6:46 PM)


Laura K
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 7:39 PM

Post #17 of 101 (7071 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

A to B

I am starting to gear towards all purchases accomodating HD.
I want to purchase a system to handle it first before buying
the cams and am watching what Itel comes out with.

I also want to see the new Panny cam before making any
decisions.

L




"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


DSE
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 7:48 PM

Post #18 of 101 (7063 views)
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Re: [Laura K] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

AE will suck at the downconvert, but Premiere will do great. The next AE will be much better. It's not optimized for 709 yet. Downconverted HD to SD looks far better than SD originated material. If you wanna know what it looks like now, download the free HDV clips from the VASST site and start playing with your DVD authoring tool. Compare it to anything you've shot in SD/DV.
For the very same reason Hollywood films look better on DVD, so will the HD/HDV. It originates with a higher quality format. Of course, encoding is done by hand with hardware in Hollywood, so that is part, but it's a small part. The higher quality content makes all the difference in the world.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 17, 2005, 8:31 PM

Post #19 of 101 (7059 views)
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I'm at stage C, and would say that D is irrelevant for any but a neglible number of people. Besides, HDV is technically high-definition video and can accurately be described as such, so long as you don't mislead anyone into thinking you own a $100K Hollywood HD camera.

Still working out all the details and developing a marketing strategy which will attract paying customers, but I'm planning to be ready to go when the customers are.


kimi
User


Feb 17, 2005, 8:40 PM

Post #20 of 101 (7058 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

C - currently including HDV option as upgrade.

when the brides see the difference in a hdtv display it really makes them wanting to buy HDV for their wedding. Their comments are: "its like being there"

we just shoot our first hdv wedding this last weekend and this week we booked two hdv weddings for october 2005

for those already booked we give them the option to upgrade.. its easier to sell to someone you have already sold.
"everything's going to change"


RustyB
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 10:24 PM

Post #21 of 101 (7034 views)
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For those of you selling clients HD wedding currently, are you upfront about how many HDV cams you have, whether or not you'll be mixing in SD camera footage, and just what are you delivering them?

Right now anyone claiming to sell an HD wedding video is:

A: Probably misleading the customers into thinking their DVD will be HD.
B: Telling them that because their FX1 is HD, their DVD will be HD.
C: Promising to deliver on a new format of disc that isn't even on the market.
D: Selling the customer a proprietary DVD player that plays "homegrown" HD on standard DVD's in one way or another, which will be of zero use to any of their friends/family members.

I have every intention on replacing all three of my cameras with HDV, as I can afford it. But until the day I successfully burn an HD-DVD or BluRay disc, I can't see selling an HD package as being very good business sense.

I can see being able to provide the customer with an HDV master of their edited project on an HDV tape for future use, in addition to their SD DVD's, but don't know how I would market a video that is 100% useless to them. In fact, I'd most likely do it for free, and keep a second copy for myself as a master for my archives.




Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc


John K.
Veteran / Moderator


Feb 17, 2005, 11:15 PM

Post #22 of 101 (7022 views)
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Re: [adtr] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Sticking with A – SD, might go B – HD in late 2007 if my market is ready and it makes business sense.

Why SD you say…

1) My 2005 wedding season is full.

2) Of my bookings for 2006, none have mentioned HD whatsoever. I have no doubt my 2006 will fill without a word about HD from any of my clients.

3) My SD cameras have been paid off for a few years and it makes greater business sense to me to get as much life (and return on investment) out of these cameras as I can. Extra profit goes into my retirement savings and my 3 year old daughter’s College Fund.

4) I'm conservative when it comes to buying into the latest technology. I NEVER buy the first release of any new techie stuff. If I did that, and bought HD cameras now that I wouldn’t use anyway, I know I'd want the "new and improved" camera when that comes out in a couple of years.

5) I don't have the spare time now to fool around and do "work-arounds" with the stuff now (when my client's have no use for it) - even if I wanted a HD camera to have for fun, I just don't have the time for it right now.

6) My clients aren't asking for it and I feel no pressure from what Sony, WEVA, Best Buy and the trade magazines want everyone to believe. That’s a general rule for me with regards to any technology stuff, not just with HD.

7) As I've mentioned before, and others have pointed out, once a HD-DVD format is available and consumers show signs of buying into it (in my market area), then that will have more influence on me and help me decide when the time is right.

8) In waiting, a benefit I see, is that prices on other HD related stuff will drop slightly, and the software and other issues that exist now in terms of editing will have been resolved. And of course, the “new” models of cameras will be out.

Anyway, my take and why I'm in no rush. I’ll enjoy at least a few more years using my SD cameras and buy into HD when I’m good and ready and I can see it becoming a benefit. As to when, my plan is to wait until mid to late 2007 and see what my market is like – if it doesn’t warrant the investment then, I’ll continue to hold off and revisit HD in 2008.

For the record, I do have a DVD from an associate who shot with the FX1 at a recent wedding and downcoverted it to DV. The difference I noticed is with objects in the far background, they appear more in focus and cleaner vs. DV (i.e. Guests way in the background could me made out much better, that did look good). As far as the general picture quality, I would say a bit more bite, but nothing that I found earth-shattering (at least while viewing the downconverted DVD). I do realize it is downconverted and put onto a regular DVD, so I’m sure the orig. capture looks beautiful. However, since I’m only delivering my weddings on regular DVD for the next few years, this downcoverted DVD image just doesn’t sway me.

For others, now might be a great opportunity and might reap some rewards by going HD, only you know when it’s best for you.

Thanks Shane for your willingness to share your experiences with this stuff and your two cameras.

Best to all.


(This post was edited by John K. on Feb 17, 2005, 11:59 PM)


videoguys
User

Feb 18, 2005, 6:16 AM

Post #23 of 101 (6963 views)
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Jumping in here to dig a little deeper. Lets fast forward to the Spring on 2006. You have Blu-Ray and/or HD DVD burners and players readily available.

Do you think you'll have the opportunity to charge a premium for HD productions, or will you need to do it just to keep up with the changing marketplace, or will HD weddings be a novelty for another year? I ask this because I often get in discussions with our vendors about HDV and the Event Video market.

I say you guys will be leading the way. I see HD quickly become a key part of your sales pitch - making high end videographers who do not offer HD seem to be less "good". One of the factors I see here is the groom becoming more involved with the decision to go HD. He just registered for a 50 inch plasma HD screen, or perhaps he already has one and its one of his prize posessions. He "understands" the value of HD and he can be pitched on it. Then the demand for HD weddings spreads viraly as grooms and brides start bragging about and showing off their HD wedding.

What do you guys think about that scenario? Am I on target here, or do you think your customers will resist HD and/or not be willing to pay a premium for it.

Gary
Videoguys.com
Videoguys.com 800 323-2325
We are the Digital Video editing & DVD production experts!
Use Coupon Code # VU5OFF and save 5% on any order!!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 18, 2005, 6:43 AM

Post #24 of 101 (5893 views)
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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Rusty: I understand your concerns, but some of your assumptions are incorrect and the rest is simply a matter of being up-front with customers about exactly what we can and can't offer them. There may be some videographers who will be less scrupulous about this than others, but most of them I know will probably do their best to explain the situation accurately.

I'm very specific on my web site now about what cameras are used in each of my packages: SD only, a mix of HDV and SD, or all HDV. I also mention what can be expected in terms of final output, but don't go into too much detail about this on the web site because I feel it's better to explain that in person. I do in fact plan to deliver high-definition video to customers using current and upcoming consumer-oriented solutions, of which blu-ray players are just one possibility. The most useful way to deliver high-definition output today is in Windows Media HD or DivX HD format on standard red-laser DVDs, which can be played on many current computers and the specialized but reasonably priced Avel DVD player. The latter is not a proprietary solution but is arguably a bit clunky, especially in the sense that it apparently doesn't support proper DVD menus for high-definition content.

I figure that most HD customers for now will be content to receive one HD disc with a suitable player and the rest of their copies in SD format, which will also look good to all the people who will watch the video that way. This is a compromise solution and should be described as such, but it's the best we can do today and is a heck of a lot better than not being able to offer HD at all. After just a few minutes of playing with a Sony FX1 and displaying the resulting footage on my HDTV, I'm completely sold on the HDV format and am sure it will be a huge success for wedding videography. I don't think it's misleading anyone to offer them a dramatic improvement in image quality for something as important as a wedding video, even if we're currently in a developmental stage of how to deliver the results to them.

Kevin Shaw
Always Memorable Videos
Sacramento, CA


John K.
Veteran / Moderator


Feb 18, 2005, 7:06 AM

Post #25 of 101 (5887 views)
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Re: [videoguys] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary,

I would ask you this:

Did you see that same thing when the DVD format became available for us to deliver our weddings to our clients on? Perhaps a small spike, but nothing that blew the doors off. And remember what a huge leap that was, I mean what a pain VHS was and the poor picture quality. This last year was the first year I was finally able to stop doing VHS completely. It didn't happen overnight.

About the grooms, yes they are more techie with their toys. At the same time, don't forget they are usually the ones who want to pass on video regardless because they don't understand the value of it. The format it is on is pointless!! If they don't want their bride to spend a couple of grand (or more) on a video, that they think they'll never watch again, it doesn't matter if it is shot with $200,000 cameras and a shooting crew of 10. It doesn't mean a thing. They base their opinion about video from what they have or haven’t seen before – and likely, if they don’t want video, they have never seen a well-done wedding production; only what “uncle Charlie” has done.

What does matter and what does change that perception, is when video folks deliver QUALITY productions that exceed their client's expectations. A video that captures everything and the emotion of their day and is edited well. This, content, is what can get more grooms to see the value of video.

Paying a premium for HD may exist now for those who want to jump in and work with the stuff - but they still must deliver a darn good video. No one wants a pile of doo doo filmed in HD, when they could get total emotion and impact filmed in SD (by videography company XYZ who does outstanding work) and put onto the very alive and well DVD format. A format all their friends and parents will have for many years yet and will have nearly zero compatibility issues.

Your scenario is interesting, but very short-sighted and flawed once you look beyond the "pretty" surface - the surface Sony and WEVA are painting for you. The majority of our target market will always be the bride, because they are the ones who do all (well, most) of the planning, it is their dream day, and they want to be able to relive their day and share it with their children - they understand the value of it more easily than any groom would, and again, assuming they have seen a well done wedding video.

The bottom line to remember (in my humble opinion): Content and quality is first, your personality and how you present yourself to your clients is second, your company's reputation is third, fourth, our target market will always be the bride first (don't loose sight of that), and finally, the quality of your equipment, being the 5th factor, is only relevant if you know how to use it, and use it well – otherwise it becomes 100% pointless.

Take care,

John


(This post was edited by John K. on Feb 18, 2005, 7:24 AM)

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