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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
HVX200 camera

 
 


cinematicbride
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Mar 19, 2007, 11:06 AM

Post #1 of 16 (4392 views)
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HVX200 camera Can't Post
Hey Guys,
For those of you that shoot with the HVX200 cameras what is your transfere workflow. Such as do you shoot with P2 or do you shoot with firestores? I am fixing to buy two of them and I want to see what you guys do. We have looked at renting the firestore system or renting a ton of p2 cards. The better option seems to be the firestore. But I just wanted to see what others have to say.
___________________
Joshua Smith



KevinShaw
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Mar 22, 2007, 10:15 PM

Post #2 of 16 (4316 views)
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Re: [cinematicbride] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
I don't have an HVX200 but I can tell you that the Firestore FS-100 costs under $2000 for 100 GB of capacity, which is less than the price of two 8 GB P2 cards (total of 16 GB). Clearly the Firestore is more cost-effective, especially for long-form projects, but P2 is arguably more reliable. I'd plan on getting at least one of the Firestores if I bought this camera.


Laura K
Veteran


Mar 30, 2007, 8:54 PM

Post #3 of 16 (4224 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
Why is P2 more reliable?
L




"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


Christopher
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Mar 31, 2007, 7:11 AM

Post #4 of 16 (4210 views)
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Re: [Laura K] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
From what I've read, I think P2 is more reliable in the field or for event videography because it is firmly seated in the P2 slots, while the Firestore is connected via Firewire (which isn't as stable). In a studio or a situation where the camera will be locked down, you wouldn't have to worry too much about the Firewire cable being jostled about.

The Cineporter is very intriguing because it will actually connect via the P2 card slots, and mounts beneath the camera. It's due out sometime this year, and if it delivers what it promises, it should be a very worthy investment.
---
FX1, HC1, iMac G5, Final Cut Studio
The Signal - in theaters October 23, 2007


Laura K
Veteran


Apr 1, 2007, 9:47 PM

Post #5 of 16 (4180 views)
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Re: [Christopher] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
Ok, I thought you meant the media itself. Yes,
I have heard the same thing too about the
fw connection.

I agree that the idea of the Cineporter is interesting,
but if it comes in anything like they are talking it's still
way too expensive and makes handheld nearly impossible
and glide' ing it would be heavy.

Ugh, I want my Panny without the price of the media and the pesky
capture options.
L




"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


KevinShaw
Veteran

Apr 2, 2007, 4:40 AM

Post #6 of 16 (4174 views)
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Re: [Laura K] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
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Ok, I thought you meant the media itself.
Technically the P2 media should be more reliable than a hard drive based recorder, especially in terms of durability. Note that P2 is electronic media (like RAM) which has no moving parts to break, whereas hard drives are highly sensitive mechanical devices which can fail in many ways. I'm not a fan of P2 because of the high cost, but the concept is a good one which could become more common for videography in the future using standard (affordable) flash memory cards. If you like the HVX200 camera but don't like P2 media costs, watch for future HD cameras which will offer similar functionality for a fraction of the price. Could be a few more years yet before that comes to full fruition, but it's plausible.


Laura K
Veteran


Apr 2, 2007, 11:29 AM

Post #7 of 16 (4166 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
We discussed this about a year ago or so. I agree I think a flash type
of media is the future, probably for a replacement of DVD's too.
What really bugs me is that Panasonic could sell a lot more of these
cameras if the capture media was affordable. They just aren't too
worried about our section of the market.
L




"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


KevinShaw
Veteran

Apr 2, 2007, 1:54 PM

Post #8 of 16 (4158 views)
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Re: [Laura K] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
What really bugs me is that Panasonic could sell a lot more of these
cameras if the capture media was affordable. They just aren't too
worried about our section of the market.

Word is Panasonic isn't having any trouble selling all the HVX200s they can make, but that still leaves a gap in their product lineup for more affordable HD video cameras -- unless you count their latest little one. Time will tell if they decide to do something about this oversight; in the meantime we've got options from Sony, Canon and JVC to consider.

Smile


KevinShaw
Veteran

Apr 19, 2007, 11:41 AM

Post #9 of 16 (4038 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
For those who haven't heard the latest news from NAB, Sony announced a flash-based video camera with 1/2" sensors and 14X zoom which will record XDCAM HD at 35 Mbps on a new memory card format co-developed by Samsung that (hopefully) won't cost nearly as much as P2 cards. The camera is the XDCAM EX and is expected to ship by the end of 2007 at a price below $8000. If that price includes a couple of the new memory cards it will be good competition for the HVX200, which currently costs about the same with two 8GB P2 cards. Meanwhile, rumors are that P2 prices will drop significantly this year to around $900 for 16 GB, compared to $1000+ for 8 GB today, but that would still be expensive compared to good non-P2 flash cards. The Sony camera with larger sensors should run circles around the HVX200, and in theory the Sony footage will be directly playable on Blu-ray discs or the Playstation 3. Finally, a practical alternative to what the HVX200 tried to be but wasn't because of the memory card cost and restrictive DVCProHD recording format.


(This post was edited by kwshaw1 on Apr 19, 2007, 11:45 AM)


Timothy Harry
Veteran


May 22, 2007, 11:56 AM

Post #10 of 16 (3833 views)
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Re: [cinematicbride] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
I know that I am late on replying to this post, and you have probably bought all of your stuff, but we use the HVX and I would love to say a couple of things.

I use both firestore and P2. We have not had any weddings this year because of a big project we just wrapped up for a local church. I filmed the 3 hour services on this last deal on the firestore and have been extremely impressed with the runtime of the firestore. For the b roll footage we got from around the church we shot it on the P2 cards. This worked great for us and I can only imagine how well it will work in a wedding.

In a couple of years I hope to be doing the whole thing on P2 only. The firestore is a great product, but it adds weight to a camera and makes it impossible to balance on a glidecam. According to an estimate on DVXUSER they estimate the 128MB cards by 09. On a 128GB card its 2 hours of 1080i60 DVCPROHD, and probably double that if you go down to 720p24Pn. All of this on a durable solid state memory card that can fit in your hand, not affected by xray machines or magnets in an airport, and will operate in extreme conditions. Also want to mention that you can throw a P2 card across a room, stomp on it and put it back in the cam and continue recording on it (I watched Barry Green do it 2 weeks ago) I would like to see that be done with a tape.

We really love the workflow and the efficiency it has given us for our projects. We now do not spend 3 solid days just capturing all the footage, unless it is coming from one of our older cameras. In my estimation it will take about 2 hours to import clips from a wedding and reception from 3 cameras into FCP. If raylight comes out for the mac it will make this time figure go down even more, because it will make p2 native in fcp, drag drop and your done. (Edius and AVID already have native P2)

Not to knock XDCamHD, but I have not been impressed at all by the demo footage I have seen when comparing it to the offerings from the DVCProHD cams. I just does not seem nearly as rich.

Tim Harry

Dallas, TX


renniedj
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May 22, 2007, 6:48 PM

Post #11 of 16 (3820 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
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I know that I am late on replying to this post, and you have probably bought all of your stuff, but we use the HVX and I would love to say a couple Also want to mention that you can throw a P2 card across a room, stomp on it and put it back in the cam and continue recording on it (I watched Barry Green do it 2 weeks ago) I would like to see that be done with a tape.
 okay but why would I do that to tape (or a much more expensive p2 card for that matter)? Wink
Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video


Timothy Harry
Veteran


May 23, 2007, 7:35 AM

Post #12 of 16 (3802 views)
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Re: [renniedj] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
Im not too sure why you would want to do it, and we all questioned Barrys sanity when he threw his, but we were very impressed when he put it in the camera and it fired right up. Its kinda nice to have the piece of mind that if for some reason your card fell off a balcony and hit the hard floor, it would still survive.

Tim Harry

Dallas, TX


KevinShaw
Veteran

May 23, 2007, 8:18 AM

Post #13 of 16 (3801 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
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According to an estimate on DVXUSER they estimate the 128MB cards by 09.

I think you meant 128 GB, which would be encouraging news for people who want to use the HVX200 for event work. But by the time P2 cards get that big there will be other more practical alternatives, and P2 will be looking dated with the demise of the PCMCIA standard. Even Panasonic is apparently moving away from P2 for prosumer-priced video cameras, and no one else is adopting P2 for video use. If you really like the DVCProHD recording format then the HVX200 has its place, but other than that it seems headed for obsolescence.

As far as XDCAM HD is concerned I've seen samples which looked quite good, but I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also keep in mind that there isn't any practical way to deliver DVCProHD footage to consumers, while XDCAM HD (or its equivalent) can be put on a standard Blu-ray disc.

Regarding tape versus solid-state recording: when a miniDV tape breaks it costs about $15 to get it repaired and you lose a few seconds of footage in the process. If a P2 card fails the footage on it would be gone for good unless you pay a ridiculous amount of money to try to retrieve it, and that without any guarantees. It appears that solid-state video recording will probably be commonplace in the future, but that won't entirely be a good thing.


renniedj
User

May 23, 2007, 9:35 AM

Post #14 of 16 (3787 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
I agree. It will take real compelling reasons for us to leave tape. Tape is much cheaper even after factoring in the cost of capture. If I was a news channel looking to turn around something in a matter of minutes or hours on a daily basis then p2 would be appealing. But in our case we have enough time for logging - even when doing a SDE.
Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video


Timothy Harry
Veteran


May 23, 2007, 9:35 AM

Post #15 of 16 (3789 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
OK sorry didnt mean to mistype. I did mean GB. Im not quite sure I agree with you on the cam being obsolete in 2 years. The really cool thing about this camera is its upgradeable firmware. A simple software upgrade can add new functionality, and we probably will not be seeing revisions of the camera, just firmware versions, and they are free upgrades. The PCMCIA slot works well, and duel systems makes an express card to PCMCIA adapter that works very well. You also have the camera to read off of as well as a myriad of other readers specifically designed for the P2 system.

XDCam is still MPEG, it is still based on a GOP compression scheme, and if you lose one frame, you take a chance on losing more frames. On a solid state media it may be better, but optical discs and tapes are very subject to dropouts. You may be able to put it directly on a Blu-Ray disc, but with the format war who knows if you arent going to have to convert it for HD-DVD. We probably still wont know for a few more years whether the industry will go HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. so there is still a chance you may still be converting. Panasonic has always marched to the beat of their own drummer, and DVCPro is really no exception. While not a great delivery medium, it is a great capture medium, and converting it to whatever format you need works well for delivery.

On the solid state memory front, I have been really listening to people on forums, and there has only been one instance that I can remember of someone losing any footage. This was because he had rented a bad card, they figured it out quickly, and solved their problem. I have had many more problems with bad tapes in the past, one event I did a few years ago I had to refund the clients money because of a bad tape. I have just never had great luck with tape and its a hassle to store it. I think that solid state is a great thing, and will really be great as it continues to evolve. I really think that in 15-20 years people will see the tape cartridge and optical discs as we see reel to reel and vinyl records today.

Tim Harry

Dallas, TX


KevinShaw
Veteran

May 23, 2007, 10:25 AM

Post #16 of 16 (3779 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] HVX200 camera [In reply to] Can't Post
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Im not quite sure I agree with you on the cam being obsolete in 2 years.

Obsolescence is a relative term in a case like this: if you already own an HVX200 it should be useful for many years to come; if you don't there will be little reason to buy it in the future. For event work in particular I don't see this camera getting much attention down the road, especially if Panasonic ships a decent prosumer implementation of H.264 recording. For broadcast work it's a different story for now, but that too could change with time.

As far as concerns about GOP-based recording are concerned, in my experience that's just FUD. I've had essentially no dropouts with HDV using the same tapes I used to use for DV, so the error correction in the cameras must be working pretty well. Extrapolate that to an XDCAM HD or H.264 camera recording to solid-state media and you'll have most of the advantages of P2 without the high cost of recording, and that's a winning combination for event work.

Regarding Blu-ray versus HD-DVD, my point was that the former offers the best mainstream option for delivering high-bandwidth video to consumers -- and there isn't anything better on the horizon. Plus transcoding from DVCProHD to any consumer HD delivery format is going to cost you some of the advantages of shooting DVCProHD in the first place, hence another reason why its future is limited for event work. Not that there's anything wrong with using P2 and DVCProHD, but other options will be more popular because they'll be more practical.