Home Free Library Store
Free Catalog



Save with a Two Year Membership

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.
Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members
Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index Search Posts
Who's Online Log In



Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Web Video Options are Many!

 
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


Brackish
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 5:57 PM

Post #26 of 38 (1157 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Brides don't ask and brides don't care.
 Just like they are about ... ummmmmm ... well, never mind, won't go there. Smile



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


DSE
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 10:11 PM

Post #27 of 38 (1152 views)
Shortcut
Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
In Reply To
DJ's buy music off iTunes, which does not give them the right to play it in public for money, and yet they still do it and nobody ever gets sued for it.
I've had venues tell me that they pay an annual fee which covers
the DJ playing copyrighted music in their venue.
They do. Any bar, restaurant, or other business that uses recorded music or cover bands (ie; DJ's, office background music, etc) must join a performance rights organization such as BMI, SESAC, or ASCAP. Those payments are calculated based on play at radio and private play, and distributed to artists. My music is used in museums etc, and those payments are pretty darn important to me.
No, no one wins friends and influences people by calling them a thief, which is why I've refrained from doing so. But no one learns anything by calling a spade a pitchfork either. It is what it is. It's dishonest, it's violation of the law, it's cheating, and it's using someone else' hard work and funding to make your own work appear to be better. It's almost as if some folks are afraid to let their work stand on its own. No, I don't shoot wedding videos. But I do shoot event videos, more in one day than some folks do in a year. Since I've been down due to injury, I've had some Saturdays where as an editor, I've cut 70 twelve minute videos in a day. So it's not as though I don't do much of what this very community does. Folks ask all the time for "Jump" or "Freefallin" or "Flyin' High Again." I very briefly explain that copyright law precludes me from using these songs and I'm not paid enough to jeoparize my future by illegally using copy-protected music. Your mileage may vary, everyone's morals are different, and no judgement of a person is made by me if you use illegal music. i don't have to sleep next to you at night. Angelic

But judgements, morals, business models, common practices aside; it's still illegal.
There was once an absolutely hilarious argument about how "This guy stole parts of my wedding video for his demo reel" and the guy screaming about it used illegal music in his videos.
Pot; meet kettle. Laugh

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


grinner
User


Sep 23, 2009, 4:33 PM

Post #28 of 38 (1133 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Brides don't ask and brides don't care. They want music they they connect with - plain and simple.
 Man, it aint like I don't have clients request this song or that one. It's not their job to know the laws revolving around it. It's not illegal for them to ask me for it. It's illegal for me to duplicate it and sell it. As their producer, it's my job to legally obtain it or get something with the same flavor that doesn't break their budget. That's the gig. As I mentioned earlier, you can easily privide a song they can connect with by writing one for and about the bride and groom based on stories they tell you. Just pulling Kenny G off a shelf is cheating. ;) I did my share of weddings back in the day as I climbed ladders and ranks and I didn't have to resort to stealing. They like Enya. You like cake. Do you help yourself to it as ya walk by during the reception? It really is as easy as explaining the law to them and letting them pull from your purchased library. You'll find many music libraries have come a looong way since the stereptypical multitracked casio canned music from the 80s. DeWolfe comes to mind. You can surf their tunage free on their site and pay per download or haggle a blanket fee per production. This can be billed directly to the client. Hiding behind bottom-feeders who hork elements only keeps you from evolving past them. Look at their handicaps and lack of integrity as opportunity to bill more for your elite services.

;)
grinnerhester.com


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 23, 2009, 6:33 PM

Post #29 of 38 (1127 views)
Shortcut
Re: [grinner] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
I would love to see one example of a wedding videographer who has NEVER used copyrighted music.

Ad do you really think it's practical for me to write and perform a song for the bride and groom. I can play or program drums, and play guitar bass, and keys, but Do you have any idea how time consuming it is to record and mix a hit song. And it better be a "hit" with the client or they will be mad. I have been in many recording studios with bands and it's very time consuming.

I just don't think you understand what it takes to make it in the wedding video industry. It's much different than the commercial work that you do.

I think you're also overlooking the fact that in order to avoid using copyrighted material we would have to remove all the audio, except for the toasts, from the reception. I can't imagine asking a DJ to do a voiceover of the intros so I can put royalty free music in there instead of the Black Eyed Peas. And I'm supposed to explain to a bride why I need to remove Daddys Little Girl?

Do you know what that bride is gonna do when I explain all this to her? That's right she's gonna call the guy down the street who i using copyrighted material and still not get sued over it. LaughLaughLaugh



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



(This post was edited by Kenneth on Sep 24, 2009, 4:36 AM)


grinner
User


Sep 24, 2009, 6:10 AM

Post #30 of 38 (1115 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree in this topic, man. I see stealing as crime. You see it as a requirement to get gigs.
tomatoe/tomato.

;)
grinnerhester.com


DSE
Veteran


Sep 24, 2009, 11:35 AM

Post #31 of 38 (1108 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To

I think you're also overlooking the fact that in order to avoid using copyrighted material we would have to remove all the audio, except for the toasts, from the reception. I can't imagine asking a DJ to do a voiceover of the intros so I can put royalty free music in there instead of the Black Eyed Peas.
This is not correct. Ancillary or incidental audio at a public event carries different issues, but for the sort of work that event and wedding videographers do, unless it's OTA, it's not an issue. It falls into DeMinimis in most situations.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 24, 2009, 11:49 AM

Post #32 of 38 (1105 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
Like Grinner says - we have agree to disagree. Yeah, I'm stealing by using copyrighted music. But is what I am doing taking money out of the pockets of the artists? If we don't even have a way to license the music then the answer is "no".

If it is any consolation, I don't use any filing sharing apps. If I need a song I get it from iTunes. Maybe they ain't getting the $50 they could if their publishing company would license it, but their still getting my buck.

(I also buy all my movie from iTunes as well)



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



DSE
Veteran


Sep 24, 2009, 12:50 PM

Post #33 of 38 (1101 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Like Grinner says - we have agree to disagree. Yeah, I'm stealing by using copyrighted music. But is what I am doing taking money out of the pockets of the artists? If we don't even have a way to license the music then the answer is "no".

If it is any consolation, I don't use any filing sharing apps. If I need a song I get it from iTunes. Maybe they ain't getting the $50 they could if their publishing company would license it, but their still getting my buck.

(I also buy all my movie from iTunes as well)
There's no disagreement. As long as we understand that what you're doing is stealing, we agree. Where we differ is in our moral aptitudes.

Put differently;
You're taking my car without asking me. True, I own more than one car, so it's not a huge inconvenience. I'm not a rental agency, so there is no way for you to use my car without asking me. You driving my car puts wear and tear on it, so it devalues my car. Songs are valued very similarly to mileage on a car. The lower the play off radio, the greater the worth, because radio is the only place you can hear it without purchasing it. So yes, you're taking money out the pocket of the artist, and you're using someone else' property without permission. I'm sure you'd be tweaked if someone came into your home and used your hard-earned tools, equipment, or stole your creative energy and passed their work off as their own, intimating that they have permission to do so.

It's no consolation nor is it skin off my nose. I'm ambivalent to your theft because I understand. I work with violent youth as a volunteer and their excuses sound the similar (he made me pull a knife out, I had no choice") We all have choices. The morals that govern your life determine how you make those choices. I can't judge you for stealing; I can only judge myself if I condone or participate in it.
BTW, with roughly 5000 event videos, a dozen wedding videos, I can honestly say I've never once used an unlicensed or copyrighted work without permission on anything. I've used copyrighted works on visual greeting cards meant for family and friends, but that is well within the realm of legality. Additionally, YouTube now licenses the Warner and Universal catalogs, which allows some leeway (which doesn't extend to DVD replication).

Either way, I honestly couldn't care less about your personal theft until it involves one of my copyrighted works. Ask Disney or HBO; I'm a hellious and nasty SOB when it comes to my music being used with out permission. I own 75% of my publishing, and so it's a big deal. And more importantly, there are some very specific places I will not allow my music to be used, such as in "adult" or religious presentations of any kind. Artbeats, the largest stock media provider in the world has similar restrictions. They own the copyright, which literally is the "right to copy."
A very well known WEVA person was caught using stolen Artbeats clips. Artbeats was not terribly kind to him. I think they should have been less kind than they were. He got lucky that they didn't end up in front of a judge.
One day, you too will probably dodge a bullet. You can't say you weren't warned. In fact, everything you've written here (Just EXACTLY like Tenenbaum) is admissable in court, and serves as a potential but-biter.
I wish you luck in your endeavors.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 24, 2009, 1:05 PM

Post #34 of 38 (1098 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
Touch me and I'll sue.


Sue me for what?




Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



RayRoman
User


Sep 24, 2009, 8:01 PM

Post #35 of 38 (1088 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
In Reply To
... I've used copyrighted works on visual greeting cards meant for family and friends, but that is well within the realm of legality..
Really? I think the publishing companies and record label will tell you something different. Last time I checked, wedding videos were meant for family and friends...but that's not "well within the realm of legality"? Wink

Ray Roman
www.rayromanworkshop.com
800.948.3914


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 26, 2009, 6:50 AM

Post #36 of 38 (1067 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RayRoman] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Really? I think the publishing companies and record label will tell you something different. Last time I checked, wedding videos were meant for family and friends...but that's not "well within the realm of legality"? Wink
I think record companies look at copyright infringement and they see where it's hurting and where it's not. Somebody running a file sharing application and distributing the latest music is going to affect their profits. Using a song in a wedding video will not affect their profits. And in the case of the JK Wedding Entrance Dance it's been proven that a couple's private wedding video actually helped sales of the Chris Brown song Forever. And it couldn't have come at a better time with all the press he s was getting for beating Rhianna.

I think further evidence is the fact that if we use copyrighted material on YouTube now we get an email asking if we would like to remove the copyright material or allow advertising on the same page as the video. It's simply a case where they know it's happening. They know they can't stop it. So they might as well try and find a way to profit from it.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



RayRoman
User


Sep 26, 2009, 7:04 AM

Post #37 of 38 (1065 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
Preach it Kenny!!

Ray Roman
www.rayromanworkshop.com
800.948.3914


DSE
Veteran


Sep 27, 2009, 9:14 AM

Post #38 of 38 (1052 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RayRoman] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
In Reply To
In Reply To
... I've used copyrighted works on visual greeting cards meant for family and friends, but that is well within the realm of legality..
Really? I think the publishing companies and record label will tell you something different. Last time I checked, wedding videos were meant for family and friends...but that's not "well within the realm of legality"? Wink
Wrong. If you seriously wanna go toe to toe on the law in this realm, I'm exceptionally excited to do so. Bring your best game.Tongue

Making a greeting card for a wife, brother, daughter, son, father, mother....is personal use. It's one replication for a family member. It doesn't hit the internet, isn't a duplication, isn't a violation of sync, and is very well covered by several sections of the US Copyright code, and falls into similar realms of the DCMA. Additionally, Berne provides specific permissions for personal use.
Personal use does NOT cover multiple replication of a song(s) by a semi-professional video editor for weddings, events, nor even specifics like syncing music to video for sporting events under an ASCAP or BMI license. It's why you don't see that done at hockey, baseball, or similar games. They can play a video or graphic that is relevant to the music being played (and a good producer will do exactly this) but they cannot be synced in anyway.
In other words, comparing a personal greeting card for a family member that is never burned to disc, never sees the public spaces on the web, and is essentially a one-time play doesn't even remotely approach songs used on wedding videos in terms of similarity.Tongue

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All